Saddleback: The Healthiest Church in America?
As has become the custom when we visit the Shepherds’ Conference, we trekked down The 5 to Lake Forest to see what is going on at Saddleback Church.
To say that this part of the trip is vexing is an understatement. Each year we have seen hundreds of folks come into the beautiful facilities of Saddleback only to have their ears tickled with theology that rivals Oprah more than the Apostle Paul.
One of the guys in our party told another that he would give him a dollar for every Bible that he saw. This may be an expensive object lesson…right? At the end of the night my friend did not owe even one dollar, because Bibles were as scare as the gospel.
I resolved to sit in the front row so that I could get a good view of things. After a couple of songs Rick Warren came out and to my surprise announced that they were “On our way to becoming the healthiest church in America!”
I was shocked.
Warren was not referring of course to spiritual health but to physical health. They have implemented a new program of walking and worshiping. The congregants get up early and go for a walk together. This sounds like a good and healthy endeavor. It was just the irony of the whole thing that got me. Here you have a church where no one brings a Bible, the pastor obscures the gospel with dreadful persistency, and from the conversations I had with folks there, the church has no clue about what spiritual health is all about. They are going to work on the physical heart, and boast in the results while ignoring the spiritual heart and the requisite boasting in Jesus.
One person in our group called his shot. He said that this is going to be the new Rick Warren book/program phenomenon, a weight loss program led by Rick Warren, and it sounds like it will sell. I think Warren said he is aiming to loose 65 lbs. So look for that to flood your local Christian bookstores in time for the New Year’s Resolution season of ’08.
This is really a sad situation. Here we have a guy with worldwide influence and a growing church in Southern California, and they are neglecting the only thing that can bring lasting fruit. The first year I went the gospel was obscured, last year it was perverted, and this year it was completely marginalized. This church is a merry go round that is suspended over the flames of hell. They are captivated by entertainment, flippancy, irreverence, and trends. This comes from the top down. And this is not soley because they are going for walks in the morning, but because of their track record of mishandling the gospel, which is the only thing that can bring true health.
I talked to so many people at Saddleback who have been coming to the church for years and had no clue about the gospel. I am not being theologically nit-picky here either, I am serious. Jesus is more of a non-judgmental buddy who died to show us how valuable we are than he is a wrath guzzling substitute who is the only mediator between heaven and earth providing righteousness, hope, life, joy and peace through his atoning cross-work.
As I evangelized folks I was so disturbed, I do pray that they heard the truth and will receive it. Also, that they would find Jesus to be infinitely glorious and mighty to save. I pray that God would be pleased to shake Rick Warren and cause him to believe the gospel that he no doubt knows but so carelessly obscures.
Possibly Related posts:
- First Public Appearance for Obama and McCain….Saddleback Church?
- Rick Warren: Your Preaching & Prayer will not grow your church, but your skill
- A Response to the John Piper / Rick Warren Drama
- Some thoughts on the Saddleback Forum
- What do the top two church-planting churches in America have in common?
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erik…thanks for your insights…question for you…you said you spoke and evangelized to folks at Saddelback…can you be more specific…did you literally stand outside with tracts or did you walk up to people…how and what did you do? Just curious…hope all is well…
I talked to whoever I could. I handed out some “one-way” tracts, but mostly spent time trying to engage people with the gospel. Everyone I talked to got a tract.
I also went up to this group of young people who looked like they needed Jesus (wink). They actually had Bibles (shock!) but they were from the Shepherds’ Conference too. (i also gave them a tract).
I spent a lot of time at the 12 steps table. This is a table that has help for addictions for everything except apostasy. That individual was a church leader who became frustrated with the gospel discussion. Regrettable.
I truly am burdened for them. Trying to look at them like Jesus would:
Matthew 9:36 Seeing the people, He felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and dispirited like sheep without a shepherd.
Erik,
This raises a great question. How do you go about evangelizing someone who thinks they are a Christian?? In the American South, many people think they are a Christian because they walked the aisle, signed the card, got baptized and essentially got their “fire insurance.” They can tell you a date, but can’t show you a fruit.
What do you think?
Oh I love this article that you, I too feel a burden with what is happening. I sure hop you answer Van Edwards comment, I would be interested in knowing your response.
Great, insightful writing from the frontlines. Thanks, Erik.
When I visit churches I too always take note of how many people bring their Bibles. It’s a litmus test of sorts for what kind of congregation it is and for what kind of preaching is likely going on (expository, Bible-centered or the one verse cited merely as a springboard to a topical, anecdote-filled message).
A quick response to Van Edwards’ question about evangelizing those who think they are Christians. It does call for diplomacy. I’m a big tract passer, so when I give one to a suspected nominal believer or someone who takes offense (“Why, I’m already a Christian!”) I’ll say something like “read this over and when you’re done, pass it on to someone you think needs to read it.” Then I pray and trust God that the buck stops there and a seed is either planted or nurtured along.
Van-
That is a key point. My mindset is the gospel should encourage a believer. When is the last time you have been evangelized? Now when was the last time a cultist has hit you up? Exactly. I’m waiting for someone to come up and talk to me about the gospel.
Most people I talk to say they are a Christian. What I typically do is ask, “How did God bring the gospel to you?” or “When were you converted?” A lot of people say they have always been a Christian…well this is impossible (Matt. 18.3; Jn. 3.3, etc). So there we go..in with Eph. 2, Rom. 3. If they give you a lame testimony (like one of my new purpose driven friends) then you go through the gospel, how God saved you.
I also like to talk about things that are distinctly Christian, ie how can God be just and forgiving at the same time. The cultural southern gospel does not address this.
Another thing to ask is how has God changed your life. Eph. 2 talks about salvation by grace alone but then it also produces works.
Sometimes we go from evangelists to revivalists depending on the message. But I think there are many more unbelievers who are professors and not possessors than we realize. First John is another great place to go to see evidences of genuine saving faith. At the end of the day we do not affirm anyone, that is the Holy Spirit’s job, we just interact with folks via the inspired word.
hope this is helpful.
erik
He’s (Warren) an enemy of the cross of Christ (Phil 3:18), so your burden is rightly directed to the people that are misled by his pseudo gospel.
May God open their eyes!
“This church is a merry go round that is suspended over the flames of hell.” How Spurgeon-esk. My stomic was turned inside out reading this one. Having someone like Ricky going out on the stage with his dirty hands, “pro-claiming” the gospel. It’s the downgrade part 4. Welcome back.
oh please no, not “The Purpose Driven Diet!”
[...] Wednesday, March 14th, 2007 in Family & Personal Irish Calvinist, as usual, has interesting and challenging thoughts to share. This time they center upon a recent visit to Saddleback Church: [...]
I increasingly find that when I try to evangelize professing Christians who know the truth of the gosel in their head, but not in their heart, that the best way to evangelize is to focus on the concept of “take up your cross.”
I was wondering why, oh why, do you subject yourself to this each year. But..if you’re evangelizing the innoculated- go for it! Perhaps you should start hosting “mission trips” to Saddleback each year.
Certainly not a good sign if people aren’t carrying Bibles.
Witnessing in the Bible belt is definitely an interesting experience. I’ve tested out a new method. Now when a person claims to be a believer, I give them the gospel tract I was going to give them before, and tell them what I was going to tell them regarding their sin and need of a Savior. This way they’ve heard the gospel, and if they are truly already saved, they now have a gospel tract and know how to use it.
Good call Jim.
Another interesting sidenote. It is not like this church is a bunch of overweight people. For the most part they are a pretty fit group. There are a few ultra Warren disciples who have adopted his shape as well, but for the most part they are not a group that you would think need to go on a massive diet.
Rev. 3:14-21 comes to mind here. Saddleback’s website says they’re on their way to becoming the healthiest church in America. v. 17: “Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked”
And perhaps this is a proper application of 3:20. Usually misinterpreted (by guys like Warren?) as an evangelistic verse, this was written from Christ to Christians – backslidden, unrepentant believers. It is an appeal within the church to repent and forsake their spiritual half-heartedness. And when thinking about improving churches today, how often do we look to the seven letters of Christ in Revelation?
Thank you for approaching the subject on witnessing to others who claim to be a Christian already. The above comments are very helpful.
What an incredible post! I appreciate the fact that you have actually been there and know first hand what it is all about. I remember when my husband and I first read *The Purpose Driven Church* many years ago(when it first came out)…we actually had an open mind with starting a new church and all…it was not long before Mike had tons of things highlighted as areas of Biblical concern to study on more…since then we have seen the error in the philosophy–the philosophy that we have to somehow make the gospel more attractive…We(or those who buy into this) in reality we are saying they are ashamed of the gospel. We have had this on our hearts for many years and are so thankful to be in a church that is not ashamed of the gospel now. I have been posting on these topics lately and hope that some will see the problem with it all. Again,thanks!!!
Kim-
Thanks be to God for his gracious illumination of truth.
It is crazy to think of what gets tossed when you try to remove the offense of the gospel…it is the cross!
It would be awesome if these pastors at Saddleback got converted or revived…that is my prayer.
If you feel a call to witness to those who attend Saddleback, you need to follow that call. But what’s the purpose of attending the entire service and “resolv[ing] to sit in the front row”? It’s not like there’s not a plethora of blogs out there telling us about every last thing that Warren does wrong.
Brendt, i told you why i sat in the front row:
“I resolved to sit in the front row so that I could get a good view of things.”
WOW! A REAL LIFE PHARISEE?
I must say I am not shocked by your “I have visited Saddleback, so I know all about them attitude.” It seems to be very prevalent these days…Dr. Albert Mohler writes an article, people read it, it gets some press time and people are suddenly experts on the theological beliefs and practices of one Albert Mohler…come on, give me a break…what are we real life Pharisees?
I’ll begin with the fact that you talked with some people at Saddleback and because of you are suddenly the “overnight expert, you are allowing those few to speak for the entire church and its staff…might be interesting to pop in Omaha Bible Church sometime and pick at random some of your folk and have them explain propitiation for us…maybe some can…maybe just maybe if you are reaching new people, some can’t…does that mean you are failing as a pastor…no, you are probably a wonderful pastor…not because of you, but because of Christ in you!
I may not agree with everything that comes out of Saddleback, but I do know they are being used by God to make an impact for the kingdom and for His fame! There is really no reason to bash them…one responder to your blog said Rick was an enemy of the cross! This kind of blog only creates divisive attitudes in the kingdom! Who are you to questions Rick’s salvation…I laugh at your ridiculous brashness…Pharisees question peoples commitment to God!
I think you should be careful not to speak as an expert on something your not…I think you should loose the I-am-better-than saddleback attitude (cloaked behind “promoting and defending the glory of God.”) God doesn’t need your defense…your fellow evangelical pastors do! His glory is great…his sovereignty is amazing…his gospel is mind boggling…that he chooses to use us, astonishing…
So, let Him use Rick to reach people all around the world without having his brothers casting stones…oh and by the way…Rick does know Jesus and his gospel very intimately…watch this and think before you speak! (Rick presentation of the gospel…)
Thanks for sharing your experience at Saddleback. I really appreciate your thoughts about witnessing in the Bible belt, too. It definitely has its own set of difficulties. I hear things like, “Well, my grandmother…”
And everybody is a member at some church. So then the question becomes, “When was the last time you were there? Are you involved?”
Erik,
So it’s ok to sit at Starbucks and drink coffee and talk about the things of God, but not OK to walk for exercise while talking about the things of God? I think you have babies and bathwater flying in the same direction…
I pray Rick Warren repents. Until he does, it is safe to assume he is a wolf.
“It’s safe to assume he is a wolf” and “an enemy of the cross” seem harsh, judgmental, and unnecessary.
New Warren franchise: The Diet-Driven Church (and it’s eco-friendly!)
Doug,
Rick Warren may very well know the gospel. He might very well be born again. However there is a certain standard that men who are to be called pastors and elders are to meet in the church.
I agree that sometimes the critcism of Warren goes to far. But on the other hand, the man is responsible for a lot of souls that attend his church. And the Scripture is not being taught with integrity, the gospel is a side issue at best, and from everything I hear, read and see from warren he is little more then a social activist for health and HIV now days.
At Saddleback Church people are encouraged not to bring there Bible because it could make someone uncomfortable. The Scrpture put on the powerpoint goes from translation to translation to paraphrase and so on so that they might find the Bible to say whatever they’d like.
In Scripture the pastor/teacher is called to feed the sheep, that is teach good doctrine and to protect the sheep, that is keep out bad doctrine.
Warren teaches bad doctrine, and adulturates the gospel. He may be born again but if so, he may be quite empty handed of any “gold silver or precious stones” (1 Cor.3:12) to hand to the savior come judgement day.
Jacob,
I agree with your comments about the role of the pastor…preaching God’s word is a high calling and one that is never to be entered into lightly…
I am just exhausted with “Warren haters” who will never in their life be used by God to reach souls the way he has been used…I guess when you are being used by God you can expect the shots to come your way!
What bad doctrine have you heard Warren preach (not saying he hasn’t…) just curious what you have seen first hand that you think is unbiblical? See I hear a lot of empty statements about “Well Rick Warren says things that are heretical…etc” but they never say the “things”!!! If you are going to say it, at least be able to quote the unbiblical statements…
I agree the Bible is always to be the central part of our lives with Christ and our churches…but is it not o.k. to have a well balanced, biblical worldview on things such as AIDS?
It isn’t just Rick that picks up this flak…there are numerous others who get this unfair treatment…all I am asking for is to put your proof out there and stop the blanket statements…they carry zero integrity!
[...] [...]
[...] Irish Calvinist: The Purpose Driven Diet? The Irish Calvinist reports on his recent visit to Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church in California. (tags: Irish Calvinist Rick Warren Saddleback Church) [...]
The following is from an article which can be viewed in full here:
http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/rickwarren-judgenot.html
Warren’s book The Purpose Driven Life contains extensive documentation of his dangerous and unscriptural “judge not” ecumenical philosophy.
On page 164, Warren says, “God warns us over and over not to criticize, compare, or judge each other. … Whenever I judge another believer, four things instantly happen: I lose fellowship with God, I expose my own pride, I set myself to be judged by God, and I harm the fellowship of the church.”
In typical New Evangelical fashion Warren makes no distinction between judging hypocritically (which is forbidden in Matthew 7) or judging on the basis of personal preference in matters not commanded in Scripture (which is forbidden in Romans 14) and judging on the basis of the Bible.
Actually, the child of God has an obligation to judge everything by God’s Word. The believers at Corinth were rebuked because they were careless in this regard and were tolerant of false teachers (2 Cor. 11:1-4). The Bereans, on the other hand, were commended because they carefully tested everything by the Scriptures (Acts 17:11). The Bible says “he that is spiritual judgeth all things” (1 Cor. 2:15) and Jesus taught that we should “judge righteous judgment” (John 7:24). We are to judge preaching (1 Cor. 14:29) and sin in the churches (1 Cor. 5). We are to try the spirits (1 John 4:1).
To test preachers and their message carefully by God’s Word is not a matter of pride, but wisdom and obedience.
On page 34 of The Purpose Driven Life, Warren says: “God won’t ask about your religious background or doctrinal views. The only thing that will matter is, did you accept what Jesus did for you and did you learn to love and trust him?”
If this is true, why does the Bible say so very much about doctrine and why did the apostles call for doctrinal purity on every hand? Paul instructed Timothy to allow “no other doctrine” (1 Timothy 1:3). That is the very strictest stance on doctrinal purity, and it is precisely the stance we find throughout the apostolic writings. Rick Warren has a lot to answer for, because millions of people are basing their lives upon his teaching rather than upon the pure Word of God.
If God is unconcerned about doctrine, why did the apostles spend so much time warning about false doctrines and doctrines of devils? See, for example, 2 Cor. 11:1-4; Gal. 1:6-12; Phil. 3:18-21; Col. 2:8; 1 Tim. 4:1-5; 1 Tim. 6:20-21; 2 Tim. 4:1-4; 2 Pet. 2.
Rick Warren requires his church members to sign a covenant that he or she promises to protect the unity of the church (The Purpose Driven Life, p. 167). This is dangerous and unscriptural covenant. The child of God is not instructed to submit to a church or to its leaders blindly and at any cost. We are commanded to “prove all things” (1 Thess. 5:21), and all things means all things. The Bereans are exalted because they “searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11). No preacher is above being tested by God’s Word. The Bible says, “Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge” (1 Cor. 14:29). Preaching is to be carefully judged by God’s Word. The pastor has God-given authority (Heb. 13:17), but it is not unquestionable authority and it is not his own authority; he is not a shepherd over his own flock; he is an undershepherd over God’s and he will give an account to the Great Shepherd (1 Pet. 5:1-4). The pastor’s authority is not in his own word; it is in God’s Word (Heb. 13:7); and if he strays from the Word of God he has no authority over God’s people and he should not be followed. Blind loyalty to a church is Popery and it is a gross heresy.
Warren even claims that “conflict is usually a sign that the focus has shifted to less important things” (p. 162).
If this were true, then the apostles and preachers in the early churches were side tracked much of the time, because they were frequently involved in doctrinal conflicts. Paul was involved in such conflicts almost continually. Most of his epistles contain lengthy sections in which he takes a stand against false teachers. In his epistles to his fellow preacher Timothy, Paul repeatedly warned about false teachers by name (1 Tim. 1:19-20; 2 Tim. 1:15; 2:17-18; 4:12, 14).
Rather than walk, they ought to join their own hula worship team to get in shape.
Jacob,
I am glad you can surf the internet and read others thoughts on Rick…yet you, YOU personally have never stated any personal claims…
However, I would note the source of this article…Independent Fundamentalist! A group which has been massively declining for years…there is a reason for the swift decline!
Wow, that is so true! It is so difficult to find a church that will actually preach the truth so much that they will offend people! ~Where people will feel such remorse over their own wretched sin, that the silly Dr. Phil talk and light topics that rarely have you falling on your knees in gratitude for our Lord would seem literally like rubbish. You wonder how many true Christians there are at these “churches” for narrow is the road. . .
Doug,
The spirit of this blog is not anti-warren, even this post is not an attack against him. The fact of the matter is this guy has made a living by doucing folks with his obscure and vague Christianity. I have sat in the congregation and heard him radical pervert the gospel and I have heard interviews where he has completely missed the mark. However the point of this is not to attack him…directly, instead it is to point out the fruit of such pastoral negligence.
You mention the AIDS impact. But you fail to mention him sharing his pulpit with a leading abortion rights and pro-homosexual marriage senator Barrack Obama.
Further you reference his results. This is a completely pragmatic approach and is utterly unbiblical. The Mormans have been attracting quite a crowd lately…are they blessed by God? How ’bout the Muslims? I hear the recruiting for Jihad is up in Iraq…is that of God? Numbers do not dictate success, not from a biblical perspective, instead it is faithfulness.
In case you did not notice I did critique or even interact with the sermon (which was horrific) instead the focus rested on the people and the regrettable irony of this church pursuing ‘health’ while they are as spiritual malnourished as a demon.
If you were as passionate about promoting and defending the gospel as you are about promoting and defending Rick Warren perhaps you would agree. Try not to import all of what you read on the internet into this post, it is simply not there.
As I drove to the church I prayed that the guy would preach a great sermon, I sat in the front row and prayed that he would exalt Christ, and I continue to pray for them. I do see them as opposing the gospel of Jesus while promoting a different gospel, which is not a gospel at all (2 Cor. 11.4).
erik
Doug,
With all due respect, I think you should ignore what everyone has to say, and ask God to reveal to you what He thinks.
However, in defence of my comment saying that he is what Paul termed, “an enemy of the cross”, I’ll just say, if a man preaches God’s majesty and holiness, God’s wrath against sin, God’s requirement for repentance and holiness of life in His people, etc, then he’ll not be attacked by those of us who love the Lord. For people to go to church without a Bible, is a sure sign the Bible isn’t preached, nor is it adhered to or loved.
“If any man preach any other gospel, let him be accursed” Gal 1:8
Are you all sure your Christians???
I wonder..I do not bring my Bible to church (Lutheran) You probably wont find a Bible in the pews, There are some in the Narthex and in the groping areas.
Is carrying a Bible a sign your a Christian?? I think not,,,,,Jesus carried no Bible, neither did Paul or Peter.
St.Fransis of Assisi did not cary one,
Did Martin Luther or Dedrich Bonhoffer?
What is a Christian to you all? do you know?
I am a Cursiesta, I bring the word of Jesus to men in 4 Prisons, I and 40 other men from the world spend 4 days in each of 4 prisions twice a year, Converting and baptiseing in the name of Jesus, We save through the Holy Spirit an average of 180 men a year.
I attaend a Bible Study each week in a Prison, not a jail, Prison.
I was saved in 1993 on a Saturday, Jesus is my Brother God my Abba, Other than Bible studys and Ministry class I dont carry a Bible, Though I have on in my truck. on the dash.
I am a Carpenter, in Northern Michigan,
I belive in Judgeing but only in Love wearing a blanket of Humility.
I love you all and am really bless to find this site and read great teachings.
I Enjoyed the PDL, though I thought it was a rip off of Cursillio/Walk to Emmaus
In Yeshua the Messiah
Rick Weiss
OH Yeah and Erik?? Who will wear this??
Ezekial 3: 18When I say to a wicked man, `You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die forA his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20″Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 21But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself.”
Rick Weiss,
Ezek. 3:18-21 was a warning from God specifically to Ezekiel. In what way is it relevant to this conversation?
Tim
I have attended Saddleback every weekend for 9 years (family vacations excepted). Rick Warren preaches the full gospel. He preaches on sin, on repenting, on the need for Jesus as the only way to heaven, and on the importance of the cross. He leads the congregation in communion, baptisms, and honest dealings with the hidden hurts and pain in their life. In fact, a few weeks ago, we were all challenged to allow God to heal our hidden wounds. This was a powerful message that hit home for many of us…. the week following was the gluttony message by Steve Auterburn (it wasn’t even Rick preaching for such a long discussion here) – regardless, we had just been through a very difficut and challenging weekend 7 days before, so we needed to let the previous week settle in a little. Rick is a great sheppherd, he knows how to guide his flock and we know how to follow him. Like any church, what is taught one week may be different from other weeks in terms of intensity… some pastors are hit and miss… but we don’t go about critiquing them for it… we need to encourage pastors. It is a difficult job and they do it because they are called by God. My pastor (Rick Warren) is a solid Bible teacher who knows how to handle the truth. Criticizing him based on someone else’s sermon, or a limited perspective at best, seems a little dangerous considering the Bible’s advice on this. I am sure you have good intent, but what is it? Do you think it helps anyone to discuss this? If so, who? I like to know what you are for, not what you are against.
I think the question to be asked is not
“Is carrying a Bible a sign your a Christian?”
but rather,
“Is neglecting/refusing to carry a Bible to a place where the Bible is supposed to be expounded, a sign you’re a Christian?”
For a man to carry a full Bible 2000 years ago would have been a workout!! They were no doubt gifted and blessed with the aid of the Spirit to memorise the scriptures.
Ever since the days when the scriptures could be placed into our pockets, men of God have never had it out of their hands.
Saddleback: I am for the gospel and against those who mishandle, pervert, or otherwise obscure it. I do not judge Warren based upon other pastor’s sermons primarily (notice I do not critique Doug Fields in this post) instead I am zeroing in on the regrettable irony of pursuing physical health while neglecting spiritual health. I am frankly grieved over what I see when I attend Saddleback and the folks whom I talk to there (leaders and members alike) have an extremely foggy understanding of the gospel if at all. I am not being nit picky here at all, but even the basics like why Jesus came and how we can be forgiven (basis)…this is so obscured with psycho-babble, man-centered, theraputic mish-mash that Jesus turns into some type of divine Genie sent from heaven to fulfill our wildest dreams rather than a divine substitute dispatched from heaven to indict sin and sinners and to magnify grace through his loving substitutionary death on Calvary.
So to summary: grieved over the people…sickened by regrettable irony…for the gospel…against heresy…
erik
Erik,
you end by saying Saddleback “carelessly obscures” the gospel. Could you also mean “carefully obscures” the gospel. I’m thinking Romans 1, here. I think this more accurately describes Warren.
Great article. thanks!
Ashley B
Nate R:
I missed your earlier comments and just now saw them. Notice what I wrote, it was not the program itself (ie walking and worshipping) but rather the irony of the thing…go for a walk, run, whatever all to the glory of God…
what I wrote was:
“They have implemented a new program of walking and worshiping. The congregants get up early and go for a walk together. This sounds like a good and healthy endeavor. It was just the irony of the whole thing that got me.”
Thanks for the revealing frontlines report. It was needed.
Erik,
I appreciate your insight. Having read his books, and being in print btw leaves one open to being challenged on what they communicate in print, I can honestly say that Rick Warren does not teach the true gospel. It doesn’t matter if he knows it or not.
And although I have never been there personally, I defer to the wisdom of a wise man who once said; “I don’t have to take the cap off of a sewer to know that it stinks.”
I have been the victim of his followers who have adopted his brand of christianity and are in the process of ripping a church in two. They are actively moving out those who question them, and there are many who are now in the wilderness, seeking a new church home.
I personally don’t need to attend saddleback or hear him speak to judge his gospel. I have felt the effects personally and have read his books personally and have felt the pain inflicted by his followers.
You will know them by their fruit. Thanks again for your insight.
Scott
A believer has the responsiblity to feed themselves by reading the Scriptures. Test the teachers(spirits)to see if they are of God and find out if they are teaching the truth or just handing you a pile of bull. The Bereans did just that. They tested what Shaul was preaching against what the Scriptures had to say. That is our standard of truth. At that time the word of God was taught and studied in the synagogues. Problem is today, many in the pews have never read the Scriptures and want to be spoon fed by someone who will make them feel good. They are actively seeking out seeker friendly theology..lukewarm…feel good about yourself…no condemnation…no meat.. I’m ok your ok stuff. The gospel (good news) that the Messiah has come actually demands something of us. That being that we turn back to God and his teaching and stop sinning.
Teresa Sardinha
Wow , Teresa has said it all!!
As to Tim
Ezek. 3:18-21 was a warning from God specifically to Ezekiel. In what way is it relevant to this conversation?????
Tim, Everything in the Bible is for bringing you closer to God, In Freindship with God, In relationship with God.
All of the Bible is to bring you into reconciliation.
That is a problem with churches today, there is NO acountability.
Salem, Rick
Great article and responses. This gives a snapshot of how far away from God we have come. Some serious soul searching needs to be done by many professing Christians.
Erik,
You responded to one small part of what I asked, but neglected to address my main point. Let me ask again, leaving out the small part that has been addressed:
But what’s the purpose of attending the entire service … ? It’s not like there’s not a plethora of blogs out there telling us about every last thing that Warren does wrong.
Short answer: my boss made me go :/
I know what Warren does, how he does it and the effects. But there is something very helpful about going there, seeing it all and looking in the eyes of the people and trying to communicate Jesus to them. That frankly, stirs my soul in a real Matthew 9:36 kind of way…my blog is not purposely driven to discredit rick warren and that was not the purpose of the post.
Erik and other commenters,
I just want to say THANK YOU to all of you for discussing this subject. I think it is healthy for us to figure out if this “purpose-driven” movement is biblical, and we have to delve into scripture and discuss and argue a bit to really figure things out.
We went through the 40 Days of Purpose a few years ago. I was not into “Reformed theology” at the time, at least I wasn’t aware that I was. I thought I was a pretty smart gal, grew up with a pastor dad for the first decade of my life, I am from a family who loves the Lord and loves to think and discuss theology, so I thought I could read the 40 Days book and find out for myself if it was “worthy” of all the popularity it was getting.
I got a headache from the book. I felt foggy while reading it. I tried to make notes, to really figure it out, and I just finally gave up. The only specific thing I could say about the book to our small group was that it felt like church-ianity to me more than Christianity.
The messages coming to those of us in Mainstream Christianity these days are obscure and confusing. I really appreciate this blog for pulling out ideas one at a time and analyzing them alongside scripture.
I have been drawn to Reformed thinkers because of their love of glorifying God. THAT makes sense to me. Reminding myself who God is and that He is on the throne clears my head and helps me to see things more clearly…it is much easier to know HOW to live when things make sense in your mind!
I also really have enjoyed reading everyone’s thoughts on this post, especially the ones about judging others. I really want to have thought this concept through before I am willing to make a stand against certain teachings.
Curtis,
I assume you did not see Rick Warren nationally interviewed by the Jewish Media??? Rick Warren was asked, “Is Jesus Christ the ONLY way?” Rick Warren would NOT answer the question. This fails 1 John 4:1-5. Again, until he repents we can assume he is a wolf. He has repeatedly denied Christ as the ONLY way in public. However, inside closed doors he does profess Christ as the only way. Take a look at what John MacArthur does when he is in questioned by national media…
http://bloodtippedears.blogspot.com/2007/03/theres-only-one-true-and-living-god.html
I attended Saddleback once. I perused The Purpose-Driven Church. I was horrified. I learned a long time ago that the devil drives; the Lord leads.
I enjoyed the PDL, I found it a nice read. Many of my peers read this and read that. They receive great theological insite.
Me? I read the BIBLE. It’s all I need.
It is the Living Word.
As for Rick Warren, seems he is worshiping at the alter of SELF!
Sad,
I feel after reading the PDL that he ripped it off the outline for Cursillo, or Walk to Emmaus.
And so it goes!
Go God, Blessed be the name of Jesus
Rick Weiss, Jews for Jesus
Again we observe how efficient Scripture is in seperating the sheep from the goats.
JOSH…
I am sure if Rick had not given a clear answer as MacArthur did concering the gospel we would have heard about it long before now…do you know how one might find this interview???
The problem with the Purpose Driven Church is that the very foundational premises of “The Purpose Driven Church” as a model/philosophy of ministry are false/unbiblical.
The purpose driven church looks at “seekers” (the lost, those outside of Christ) asks them what they want in a church and earnestly gives it to them. There is one huge problem with this premise: God, who knows the hearts of all men says this about those outside of Christ:
“What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS N O N E WHO S E E K S FOR GOD; (So much for “seekers” in the eyes of God)
ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.” (Romans 3:9-12)
According to God Himself… THERE ARE NO “SEEKERS”, we are all totally depraved.
God also declares that EVERYONE outside of Christ is spiritually DEAD and ultimately controlled by SATAN!:
“And you (believing Christians) were d e a d in your trespasses and sins,
in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is n o w working i n the sons of disobedience. (Ephesians 2:1-2)
So there you have it. Mr. Warren ET. Al within the “Purpose Driven Church” model/movement are taking their cues for their philosophy of ministry from spiritually dead, demon dominated men and women whom God Himself says are not truly seeking God. They then proceed to give these so-called “seekers” exactly what they want in a church, instead of what God says the church is really supposed to be doing (see below). The result: large crowds but a “church” that is spiritually “two miles wide and doctrinally/theologically an inch deep”.
There is one more major/key premise in the Purpose Driven Church model/philosophy of ministry that is patently and biblically false.
The premise is this: The church’s primary purposes is to attract/bring unsaved “seekers” to church so that they can hear the “gospel”. There is only one problem; this premise isn’t biblical. According to Matthew 28:18-20, Acts 1:8, and the example of the entire New Testament, the primary purpose of “church” is NOT to reach so-call unbelieving “seekers”, it is to prepare and equip BELIEVERS for service… so that they can to go out INTO the world and reach the lost, and to produce biblical unity and maturity of faith and doctrine!
“And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
for the e q u i p p i n g of the s a i n t s for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. (Ephesians 4:11-13)
Purpose driven model: The lost, the world and it’s so-called “seekers” come TO the church.
The Word of God: The church prepares and matures believers so that they go OUT into the world in order to reach the lost.
The reason why the Purpose Driven Church model is popular is because it is appealing to those who are spiritually dead and demon dominated and because it seeks to give them exactly what they are looking for.
The reason why this model is wrong is because it’s very foundational premises are false and unbiblical.
Doug,
It was on Slice for the longest time. That is only one of many examples.
Also, I have dozens of emails dialoguing with Saddleback church that would shock you.
Unfortunately, legally I may not post them.
I would recommend you read “Redefining Christianity” by Pastor Bob Dewaay.
Blessings.
“WOW! A REAL LIFE PHARISEE?”–Doug
The word Pharisee is not synonomous with hypocrite. It may suprise you all that Yeshua(Jesus) was a Pharisee and so was Shaul(Paul). When Shaul addressed the Sanhedrin he said: “Brothers I am a Pharisee.” He did not stop being a Jew or part of the Pharisaic sect when he accepted Yeshua as his Messiah. Ya’akov(James), Shimon Kefa (Peter) all Pharisee’s.
Teresa Sardinha
Rick Wiess quoted:
Ezekial 3: 18 When I say to a wicked man, ‘You will surely die,’ and you do not warn him or speak out to dissuade him from his evil ways in order to save his life, that wicked man will die for his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 19 But if you do warn the wicked man and he does not turn from his wickedness or from his evil ways, he will die for his sin; but you will have saved yourself.
20 “Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood.
21 But if you do warn the righteous man not to sin and he does not sin, he will surely live because he took warning, and you will have saved yourself.”
Shaul applied this scripture to himself in Acts 18:4-6. When he was teaching in the synagogue in Corinth and his message about Yeshua as the Messiah was opposed he said “Your blood be on your own heads! For my part, I am clean..”
“All Scripture is God-breathed and is valuable for teaching the truth, convicting of sin, correcting faults and training in right living; thus anyobne who belongs to God may be fully equipped for every good work”(II Timothy 3:16-17)
Teresa Sardinha
Teresa
Thanks for the history lesson…however, I know what the word Pharisee means and I know that Paul was one….before he met Christ…after that meeting…he said he counted all things rubbish (law, life, position) for the sake of knowing Jesus and him crucified! (I did learn a few things in Seminary!)
I was not saying the above writers were being hypocritical…I was simply making reference to their missing what is so obvious here! The Pharisees are found over and over in scripture hiding behind “scholarly religiosity” and missing the Christ who was right in front of them…
My statements have been pointed in that direction…not to call someone hypocritical!
I just believe when Christ is at work some people miss it because of their own religiosity! It is especially true of people like Rick who get a lot of opponents because God chooses to use them for something bigger…kind of sounds like Noah doesn’t it?
Erik
That’s cool. Please know that you are the great exception to the rule. Most who went to Saddleback even though they disagreed strongly with Warren and/or his methods would really be doing it for a Luke 18:11 experience, not for a Matthew 9:36 experience.
Grace
Brendt
This is a horribly ignorant commentary and gross generalization of the ministry Rick Warren and Saddleback church. This sounds like a whole lot of pharisitical chatter to me. In fact I’m not sure why I’m wasting my time even responding to these comments.
I don’t believe Jesus would be pleased to read this conversation, nor pat you on the back for your so called “defense of the gospel.” Christ seemed to condemned most harshly the self-righteous attitudes of the pharisees and had grace with those who knew little. Give Saddleback a break. Give their congregation a break. And for crying out loud give Rick Warren a break. The man has sold his life to advancing the gospel, give him the benefit of the doubt. Jesus would have. Saddleback does not preach a false gospel, they just put it simply. Chill out. Spend your time humbly engaging the world instead of unjustly critiquing the church. We are all on the same team.
But I’m sure this will all fall on deaf ears…and it’s probably a waste of my time, so I’m done now. Remember the greatest two commandments. LOVE GOD. LOVE PEOPLE. I’m sure Rick Warren is included somewhere in there.
Ryan
I am not about to respond to all of these comments. I’m glad that there is some interest but also disturbed by some of the comments. I just want to clarify a couple of things here:
1. The point of this post was to share with likeminded beleievers the burden I felt as I went to Saddleback and encountered a level of spiritual hopelessness so that others would be resolved to proclaim that which works and glorifies God (the gospel). To be burdened for others is good, even those within the “church” cf. Matt. 9.36
2. To expose the dreadful irony of pursuing this physical health while this ‘body’ is grossly malnourished
3. TO say that it was good for me to go there, good for my soul to look in these people’s eyes and speak to them about Jesus and his cross, while they looked at me with utter confusion like I was speaking a different language (and no I did not drown them in $50 theological words…I spoke to them carefully and considerately while compassionately holding forth the crucified and risen Savior)
SO…as it seems that this thread has gotten off course from the above I have closed the comments. If your comment was held in moderation..sorry.
Thanks for your interest and comments.
It has been the intent and practice of this blog to promote that which we are for rather than against, but sometimes the two lines blur.
/SDG/
erik